would like to share with you all a little something I posted here:
http://friendstacy.gaia.com/blog/2008/1/from_lakota_oyate_with_comments
Greetings, everyone. I have many new friends here, you might not have read much of what I like to blog about. I'm an anarchist. I don't believe in governmental rule, period. This is how I interpret those truths revealed to me by my ancestors when I seek within for the answers. My ancestors, for the most part, are Lakota. I have to believe that there are other people in this world that share my viewpoint, but I can only take it on faith that they do, as they never replied when I asked for their assistance in the past. So this is my own personal truth, truth I found when I look within for answers. It does not come from the teachings of any human person, any book of ancient wisdom, any religious doctrine or political treatise.
I speak only for myself, from my heart. A very human heart. I believe in freedom. I believe it can really work, people can be free if they so choose to be. It is up to each individual person to make that decision, it cannot be made for them by others. THIS is my big problem with the world we live in today. Our decisions are all pre-made by those in control. We aren't granted autonomy, but sometimes the illusion of a choice is offered us. That makes people feel a little better and helps them sleep at night. I feel this current situation is unacceptable! I don't want the illusion of choices between options which represent false distinctions and are really all the same.
so, given the choice between Russel Mean's REPUBLIC and Bush's tyranny, who can possibly choose Bush? wrong. a new republic means nothing changes. a new republic means that Plato's plan for humanity is still in place. Government control of the people is not an option, no matter how sugar-coated it might be. In order to explain myself, I have to start with Plato. and we have to look into conspiracy theories that might make us uncomfortable. We have to learn about the globalist ruling elite, those few who run the whole show. And we have to search for truth in history, because most of it is lies. But most importantly, we have to break free of the operant conditioning from the indoctrination centers we know as schools and church.
We have to question our education first of all!! We must question all of it, every thing we hold to be true. We must ask "why do I believe this is true?" and if the answer is only because they told me to believe it, or if they threatened me with horribleness if I chose not to believe it, that means there are more questions that need to be asked.
My quest is not one for answers, but rather one for QUESTIONS!! I'm nowhere near learning Truth and Wisdom, or reaching some imaginary "enlightenment" - not me!! I'm still tearing down the false ideas I always thought were true. Things I was misled to believe. And as the lies crumble down, truth is left standing tall and strong and permanent.
Problem is, where those lies originated. The lies are told by those who seek to rule. They must lie to us in order to make us believe we want to be ruled. the parallels between politics and domestic violence are horrendous. They tell us we are stupid. They beat it into our brains with television and the non-stop onslaught of advertisements telling us to buy something. What they want us to buy aren't just the crap goods made by child slave labor in countries far far away. What they want us to buy is the whole package, this system that makes us slaves to the few in charge. and they're real good at it, too. Been doing it this way over 2000 years!
They make all decisions for us. Here are your rules, The Law. OBEY. Do not question authority, ever! If you do, horrible horrible things will happen to you. You might even spend eternity burning in hell. Plato planned it all out this way, check it out. The Republic isn't a difficult read, and you can find it online for free or at any public library. Plato's plan was to make the idea of the "good of the group" more important than anything else in society. this is how they get us to choose not to decide. Yes, it is a choice we make when we give the power to make decisions over to an authority. And I'm not saying that is always wrong. What I'm saying is that it is wrong when we are lied to in order to get us to make that choice. I'm saying it is wrong when someone chooses to rule others. What needs to happen is each person needs the freedom to make their own decisions, including the decision to follow any given leader at any given time for any given reason of their own. What needs to happen is for people to just simply start making their own decisions.
I do very strongly believe that people have the ability to be self-governing and not need government rule. Lots of other people have believed this throughout history, too. Lots of very intelligent, very highly respected people. Why is it that we still have government? What are we so afraid of that we can't trust ourselves and our fellow humans?
and back to Plato, just one last time. He left us a way out. Not by what is in The Republic, but what is missing from it. There is no mention of Socrates' Daimonion, his inner guiding voice, in all of The Republic. But it is a major part of most all other Socratic dialogues. This is our way out!! All we gotta do is listen to that inner voice that tells us right from wrong. The answer is right before us, ALL of us, each and every one! The only possible place you will ever find Truth, is from looking within. It's not from following the right poitician who claims to be fighting the corrupt system that supports his own extravagant way of life, or the right general into battle. It's not from listening to the right guru or believing in the right god. It's not from praying the right way or meditating on the right mountain or with the right people. It's something each person must decide for themselves.
It's up to you. What kind of world do your children deserve to inherit? Make it happen. Don't do what anyone else tells you to do, do what your heart says is right.
Showing posts with label Plato. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Plato. Show all posts
Monday, January 21, 2008
Saturday, August 4, 2007
The Cave
Plato
Book VII of The Republic
The Allegory of the Cave
"Here's a little story from Plato's most famous book, The Republic. Socrates is talking to a young follower of his named Glaucon, and is telling him this fable to illustrate what it's like to be a philosopher -- a lover of wisdom: Most people, including ourselves, live in a world of relative ignorance. We are even comfortable with that ignorance, because it is all we know. When we first start facing truth, the process may be frightening, and many people run back to their old lives. But if you continue to seek truth, you will eventually be able to handle it better. In fact, you want more! It's true that many people around you now may think you are weird or even a danger to society, but you don't care. Once you've tasted the truth, you won't ever want to go back to being ignorant!" link
[Socrates is speaking with Glaucon]
[Socrates:] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.
[Glaucon:] I see.
And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.
You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.
Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?
True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?
And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?
Yes, he said.
And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?
Very true.
And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?
No question, he replied.
To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.
That is certain.
And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -- will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?
Far truer.
And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?
True, he said.
And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
Not all in a moment, he said.
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
Certainly.
Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.
Certainly.
He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?
Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.
And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?
Certainly, he would.
And if they were in the habit of conferring honours among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honours and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,
Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?
Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.
Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?
To be sure, he said.
And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
No question, he said.
This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.
Book VII of The Republic
The Allegory of the Cave
"Here's a little story from Plato's most famous book, The Republic. Socrates is talking to a young follower of his named Glaucon, and is telling him this fable to illustrate what it's like to be a philosopher -- a lover of wisdom: Most people, including ourselves, live in a world of relative ignorance. We are even comfortable with that ignorance, because it is all we know. When we first start facing truth, the process may be frightening, and many people run back to their old lives. But if you continue to seek truth, you will eventually be able to handle it better. In fact, you want more! It's true that many people around you now may think you are weird or even a danger to society, but you don't care. Once you've tasted the truth, you won't ever want to go back to being ignorant!" link
[Socrates is speaking with Glaucon]
[Socrates:] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.
[Glaucon:] I see.
And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.
You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.
Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?
True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?
And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?
Yes, he said.
And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?
Very true.
And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?
No question, he replied.
To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.
That is certain.
And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -- will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?
Far truer.
And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?
True, he said.
And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
Not all in a moment, he said.
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
Certainly.
Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.
Certainly.
He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?
Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.
And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?
Certainly, he would.
And if they were in the habit of conferring honours among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honours and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,
Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?
Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.
Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?
To be sure, he said.
And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
No question, he said.
This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.
Saturday, June 23, 2007
Plato, part 4
The Republic, book IV
...
428b-c But there are many kinds of knowledge in the city.
Of course.
Is it because of the knowledge possessed by its carpenters, then, that the city is to be called wise and sound in judgment?
Not at all. It's called skilled in carpentry because of that.
...
What about the knowledge of bronze items or the like?
It isn't because of knowledge of that sort.
...
It is guardianship, and it is possessed by those rulers we just now called complete guardians.
...
428e Who do you think that there will be more of in our city, metal-workers or these true guardians?
There will be far more metal workers.
Indeed, of all those who are called by a certain name because they have some kind of knowledge, aren't the guardians the least numerous?
By far.
Then, a whole city established according to nature would be wise because of the smallest class and part in it, namely the governing or ruling one. And to this class, which seems to be by nature the smallest, belongs a share of the knowledge that alone among all the other kinds of knowledge is to be called wisdom. we read yesterday how the truth matters not in the education of the workers, because if they became well-educated they would see the truth for themselves and know what has been omitted from their education, and why those in charge chose to omit it. In other words, wisdom, which is the ability to discern truth, is much too dangerous to allow it to fall into the hands of the working class. ~stacy
...
429c The city is courageous, then, because of a part of itself that has the power to preserve through everything its belief about what things are to be feared, namely, that they are the things and kinds of things that the lawgiver declared to be such in the course of educating it...
...
428b-c But there are many kinds of knowledge in the city.
Of course.
Is it because of the knowledge possessed by its carpenters, then, that the city is to be called wise and sound in judgment?
Not at all. It's called skilled in carpentry because of that.
...
What about the knowledge of bronze items or the like?
It isn't because of knowledge of that sort.
...
It is guardianship, and it is possessed by those rulers we just now called complete guardians.
...
428e Who do you think that there will be more of in our city, metal-workers or these true guardians?
There will be far more metal workers.
Indeed, of all those who are called by a certain name because they have some kind of knowledge, aren't the guardians the least numerous?
By far.
Then, a whole city established according to nature would be wise because of the smallest class and part in it, namely the governing or ruling one. And to this class, which seems to be by nature the smallest, belongs a share of the knowledge that alone among all the other kinds of knowledge is to be called wisdom. we read yesterday how the truth matters not in the education of the workers, because if they became well-educated they would see the truth for themselves and know what has been omitted from their education, and why those in charge chose to omit it. In other words, wisdom, which is the ability to discern truth, is much too dangerous to allow it to fall into the hands of the working class. ~stacy
...
429c The city is courageous, then, because of a part of itself that has the power to preserve through everything its belief about what things are to be feared, namely, that they are the things and kinds of things that the lawgiver declared to be such in the course of educating it...
Friday, June 22, 2007
Plato, part 3
The Republic, Book IV
425a But when children play the right games from the beginning and absorb lawfulness from music and poetry, it follows them in everything and fosters their growth, correcting anything in the city that may have gone wrong before-in other words, the very opposite of what happens where the games are lawless.
a lawful citizen would be one who is obedient and does not break or question the rules. Lawlessness in this sense, from my perspective, could be easily equated with autonomy ~stacy
...
425c At any rate, Adeimantus, it looks as though the start of someone's education determines what follows. Doesn't like always encourage like?
it does.
Parents who enforce their authority rather than encouraging their children's autonomy make it much easier for the schools to create lawful, obedient, unquestioning, people. ~s
And the final outcome of education, I suppose we'd say, is a single newly finished person, who is either good or the opposite.
"good" having been previously determined to mean that which benefits the State ~s
425a But when children play the right games from the beginning and absorb lawfulness from music and poetry, it follows them in everything and fosters their growth, correcting anything in the city that may have gone wrong before-in other words, the very opposite of what happens where the games are lawless.
a lawful citizen would be one who is obedient and does not break or question the rules. Lawlessness in this sense, from my perspective, could be easily equated with autonomy ~stacy
...
425c At any rate, Adeimantus, it looks as though the start of someone's education determines what follows. Doesn't like always encourage like?
it does.
Parents who enforce their authority rather than encouraging their children's autonomy make it much easier for the schools to create lawful, obedient, unquestioning, people. ~s
And the final outcome of education, I suppose we'd say, is a single newly finished person, who is either good or the opposite.
"good" having been previously determined to mean that which benefits the State ~s
Plato, part 2
Plato's Republic, book III
414c How, then, could we devise one of those useful falsehoods we were talking about a while ago, (see 382a ff) one noble falsehood that would, in the best case, persuade even the rulers, but if that's not possible, then the others in the city?
What sort of falsehood?
Nothing new, but a Phoenician story which describes something that has happened in many places. At least, that's what the poets say, and they've persuaded many people to believe it too. It hasn't happened among us, and I don't even know if it could. It would certainly take a lot of persuasion to get people to believe it.
now let's skip ahead a bit...
423e These orders we give then, Adeimantus, are neither as numerous nor as important as one might think. Indeed, they are all insignificant, provided, as the saying goes, that they guard the one great thing, though I'd rather call it sufficient than great.
What's that?
Their education and upbringing, for if by being well educated they become reasonable men, they will easily see things for themselves, as well as all the other things we are omitting... (emphasis mine ~s)
424b To put it briefly, those in charge must cling to education and see that it isn't corrupted without their noticing it, guarding it against everything. Above all, they must guard as carefully as they can against any innovation in music and poetry or in physical training that is counter to the established order. And they should dread to hear anyone say:
Someone might praise such a saying, thinking that the poet meant not new songs but new ways of singing. Such a thing shouldn't be praised, and the poet shouldn't be taken to have meant it, for the guardians must beware of changing to a new form of music, since it threatens the whole system. As Damon says, and I am convinced, the musical modes are never changed without change in the most important of a city's laws.
414c How, then, could we devise one of those useful falsehoods we were talking about a while ago, (see 382a ff) one noble falsehood that would, in the best case, persuade even the rulers, but if that's not possible, then the others in the city?
What sort of falsehood?
Nothing new, but a Phoenician story which describes something that has happened in many places. At least, that's what the poets say, and they've persuaded many people to believe it too. It hasn't happened among us, and I don't even know if it could. It would certainly take a lot of persuasion to get people to believe it.
now let's skip ahead a bit...
423e These orders we give then, Adeimantus, are neither as numerous nor as important as one might think. Indeed, they are all insignificant, provided, as the saying goes, that they guard the one great thing, though I'd rather call it sufficient than great.
What's that?
Their education and upbringing, for if by being well educated they become reasonable men, they will easily see things for themselves, as well as all the other things we are omitting... (emphasis mine ~s)
424b To put it briefly, those in charge must cling to education and see that it isn't corrupted without their noticing it, guarding it against everything. Above all, they must guard as carefully as they can against any innovation in music and poetry or in physical training that is counter to the established order. And they should dread to hear anyone say:
People care most for the song
that is newest from the singer's lips.
(Odyssey 1.351-2)
(Odyssey 1.351-2)
Someone might praise such a saying, thinking that the poet meant not new songs but new ways of singing. Such a thing shouldn't be praised, and the poet shouldn't be taken to have meant it, for the guardians must beware of changing to a new form of music, since it threatens the whole system. As Damon says, and I am convinced, the musical modes are never changed without change in the most important of a city's laws.
Thursday, June 21, 2007
Plato
The Republic, Book II, 376b-c
(speaking about how dogs love what is familiar and hate what is different)
But surely the love of learning is the same thing as philosophy or the love of wisdom?
It is.
Then, we may confidently assume in the case of a human being, too, that if he is to be gentle toward his own and those he knows, he must be a lover of learning and wisdom?
We may.
see, the deal is, those in power don't want us gentle towards each other, they want our first loyalty to be for the State. ~stacy
...
Book II, 377b
You know, don't you, that the beginning of any process is most important, especially for anything young and tender? It's at that time that it is most malleable and takes on any pattern one wishes to impress on it.
Exactly.
Then shall we carelessly allow the children to hear any old stories, told by just anyone, and to take beliefs into their souls that are for the most part opposite to the ones we think they should hold when they are grown up?
We certainly won't.
Then we must first of all, it seems, supervise the storytellers. We'll select their stories whenever they are fine or beautiful and reject them when they aren't. And we'll persuade nurses and mothers to tell their children the ones we have selected, since they will shape their children's souls with stories much more than they shape their bodies by handling them. Many of the stories they tell now, however, must be thrown out.
...
377e When a story gives a bad image of what the gods and heroes are like...
...
378a ...But even if it were true, it should be passed over in silence, not told to foolish young people. And if, for some reason, it has to be told, only a very few people - pledged to secrecy and after sacrificing not just a pig but something great and scarce - should hear it, so that their number is kept as small as possible.
my kids are no fools ~s
...
379a You and I, Adeimantus, aren't poets, but we are founding a city. And it's appropriate for the founders to know the patterns on which poets must base their stories and from which they mustn't deviate. But we aren't actually going to compose their poems for them.
...
379c Therefore, since a god is good, he is not - as most people claim - the cause of everything that happens to human beings but of only a few things, for good things are fewer than bad ones in our lives. He alone is responsible for the good things, but we must find some other cause for the bad ones, not a god.
...
380b ...We won't allow poets to say that the punished are made wretched and that it was a god who made them so. But we will allow them to say that bad people are wretched because they are in need of punishment and that, in paying the penalty, they are benefited by the gods.
...
383c Whenever anyone says such things about a god, we'll be angry with him, refuse him a chorus, and not allow his poetry to be used in the education of the young, so that our guardians will be as god-fearing and godlike as human beings can be.
go back and substitute every word "god" with "government" ~s
(speaking about how dogs love what is familiar and hate what is different)
But surely the love of learning is the same thing as philosophy or the love of wisdom?
It is.
Then, we may confidently assume in the case of a human being, too, that if he is to be gentle toward his own and those he knows, he must be a lover of learning and wisdom?
We may.
see, the deal is, those in power don't want us gentle towards each other, they want our first loyalty to be for the State. ~stacy
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Book II, 377b
You know, don't you, that the beginning of any process is most important, especially for anything young and tender? It's at that time that it is most malleable and takes on any pattern one wishes to impress on it.
Exactly.
Then shall we carelessly allow the children to hear any old stories, told by just anyone, and to take beliefs into their souls that are for the most part opposite to the ones we think they should hold when they are grown up?
We certainly won't.
Then we must first of all, it seems, supervise the storytellers. We'll select their stories whenever they are fine or beautiful and reject them when they aren't. And we'll persuade nurses and mothers to tell their children the ones we have selected, since they will shape their children's souls with stories much more than they shape their bodies by handling them. Many of the stories they tell now, however, must be thrown out.
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377e When a story gives a bad image of what the gods and heroes are like...
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378a ...But even if it were true, it should be passed over in silence, not told to foolish young people. And if, for some reason, it has to be told, only a very few people - pledged to secrecy and after sacrificing not just a pig but something great and scarce - should hear it, so that their number is kept as small as possible.
my kids are no fools ~s
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379a You and I, Adeimantus, aren't poets, but we are founding a city. And it's appropriate for the founders to know the patterns on which poets must base their stories and from which they mustn't deviate. But we aren't actually going to compose their poems for them.
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379c Therefore, since a god is good, he is not - as most people claim - the cause of everything that happens to human beings but of only a few things, for good things are fewer than bad ones in our lives. He alone is responsible for the good things, but we must find some other cause for the bad ones, not a god.
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380b ...We won't allow poets to say that the punished are made wretched and that it was a god who made them so. But we will allow them to say that bad people are wretched because they are in need of punishment and that, in paying the penalty, they are benefited by the gods.
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383c Whenever anyone says such things about a god, we'll be angry with him, refuse him a chorus, and not allow his poetry to be used in the education of the young, so that our guardians will be as god-fearing and godlike as human beings can be.
go back and substitute every word "god" with "government" ~s
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